Curse

Krill · Feb 15, 2009, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Skills

Savannah Heat / Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - 20% damage reduction across the board.
Smite Hex - 20% damage reduction and reduce AoE to nearby
Smite Condition - Reduce AoE to nearby
Lingering Curse - 10e, reduce -healing to 25% (possibly 20%...) and decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Suffering - Decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Rend Enchantments - Disabled for +10s for each monk enchantment removed
Palm Strike - Disables your non-attack skills 5s
Trampling Ox - 12s recharge, +10 damage @ 14 dagger (same as horns)
PnH - 10e, 3/4s cast - This is way too good for 5e compared to other hex removals. Only argument for keeping it is lingering gayness.
Atrophy - Change skill description to - Hex Spell. Removes a weapon spell. For (3...6...7 seconds.) target foe cannot be the target of weapon spells, 15s recharge.
Song of Concentration - No longer affects ghostly hero

Maps

Everyone has their opinion on what sucks...not a lot of love for forgotten shrines and antechamber in particular. I was thinking if antechamber is going to stay maybe add in two way teleporters like this to encourage faster splitting and better access to the outside gate pads.

HoH

Get rid of shrine caps and relic runs for 3 way...maybe keep shrine caps for 2 ways.

Heroes

Nerf interrupt ability.

---------------------

Most importantly with the skill updates though, see how the meta settles in and do another real update after a month or two to address the most pressing issues if things don't improve.

Flame away

Killed u man · Feb 15, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Skills

Savannah Heat / Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - 20% damage reduction across the board.
Smite Hex - 20% damage reduction and reduce AoE to nearby
Smite Condition - Reduce AoE to nearby
Lingering Curse - 10e, reduce -healing to 25% (possibly 20%...) and decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Suffering - Decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Rend Enchantments - Disabled for +10s for each monk enchantment removed
Palm Strike - Disables your non-attack skills 5s
Trampling Ox - 12s recharge, +10 damage @ 14 dagger (same as horns)
PnH - 10e, 3/4s cast - This is way too good for 5e compared to other hex removals. Only argument for keeping it is lingering gayness.
Atrophy - Change skill description to - Hex Spell. Removes a weapon spell. For (3...6...7 seconds.) target foe cannot be the target of weapon spells, 15s recharge.
Song of Concentration - No longer affects ghostly hero

HoH

Get rid of shrine caps and relic runs for 3 way...maybe keep shrine caps for 2 ways.

Heroes

Nerf interrupt ability.

---------------------

Most importantly with the skill updates though, see how the meta settles in and do another real update after a month or two to address the most pressing issues if things don't improve.

Flame away

Never tought I'dd see the day I'dd say this about a thread in HA-section:

This thread is made of win...

All you skills updates seem pretty good, especially the Rend nerf. (10S a bit harsh tough, maybe 5 seconds for every monk enchant. ADDITIONAL seconds, on top of the 20)

Also:

Remove fetid. Bring back Scarred and Broken Tower.

Nerf Rspike BEFORE it becomes meta again. (Hway is the only thing preventing it from being ran)

=> Win

Sun Fired Blank · Feb 15, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Savannah Heat / Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - 20% damage reduction across the board.
Smite Hex - 20% damage reduction and reduce AoE to nearby
Smite Condition - Reduce AoE to nearby

I think the problem of AoE is mostly map design rather than skill design. Capture point diameters for Antechamber, Forgotten Shrines and the central altar of Halls are ridiculously small, and Underworld and Burial Mounds are too constrained in general. The relics maps have a niche problem in that AoE is an effective deterrent for blockers, but the maps themselves are generally large enough that you won't get straight up detonated by AoE. These skills are much less of a problem on Fetid River, Golden Gates, and Courtyard.

It might be nice if NPC characteristics for taking damage from AoE was tweaked, but I don't think it's that big of a deal, and you should be able to disrupt at least a fraction of AoE output anyways.

Quote:

Lingering Curse - 10e, reduce -healing to 25% (possibly 20%...) and decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Suffering - Decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses

LC is the kind of hex that needs to exist in order for individual hex pressure midline templates to be viable. I'd be reticent to tap either skill too hard, but LC could definitely use some adjustment. At a glance, the above stats seem a bit harsh.

Quote:

Rend Enchantments - Disabled for +10s for each monk enchantment removed

Rend is problematic, but there's a whole family of similar necro ench removal that needs to be addressed. If you simply nerf rend, then people will just restructure their bars to accommodate similar spectrum skills. Deep strips in general are so valuable right now that having them is pretty much a necessity across all formats.

Quote:

Palm Strike - Disables your non-attack skills 5s

In my opinion, a flail adjustment is probably more appropriate, since that skill is problematic for damage compression on a bunch of non-warrior physical templates, most of which are incredibly lame.

Quote:

PnH - 10e, 3/4s cast - This is way too good for 5e compared to other hex removals. Only argument for keeping it is lingering gayness.

The removal effect is amazing, but PnH is still bound by the inability to serve as a power heal, and the smiting prayers clause. At 10E 3/4, it borders on being an inferior Divert Hexes, and you might as well just run a 12 prot / 12 divine / 10 secondary spread or something. Something like 5E 1A 10R is probably more suitable if you're looking to tweak those details.

At any rate, the other great strength of the PnH template is the dual party heals. They're so ridiculously efficient and easy to spam, and kill so much pressure. The ability to spam something with roughly the strength of PwK and half the cost on a 40/40 set is pretty lame.

Quote:

Atrophy - Change skill description to - Hex Spell. Removes a weapon spell. For (3...6...7 seconds.) target foe cannot be the target of weapon spells, 15s recharge.

Silver bullet skills are pretty bad. I understand the general opposition that people have to weapon of warding but something like this would be undeniably detrimental as a whole.

Quote:

Song of Concentration - No longer affects ghostly hero

The problem is more the whole capping mechanism. Nerfing song just means you'd have dueling PDs spamming that skill over and over until they tap their high sets or die, and that if you didn't 't have PD, your chances of capping would go down dramatically.

This would also make King of the Hill tedious, since if a duel over capping went on for too long, the holding team would simply base.

Quote:

Get rid of shrine caps and relic runs for 3 way...maybe keep shrine caps for 2 ways.

Capture points would be okay if it were tweaked somehow; maybe extra shrines in the center or something? Relic runs definitely need to go. Two way matches in general are terrible and so unbelievably lopsided that they should go also.

Krill · Feb 15, 2009, 03:07 PM // 15:07

AoE as a whole is a little ridiculous...even with 20% reduction it would still be viable, just not as retarded and throw an SH in every build. Sure you can shut a lot of it down usually but you can't camp one ele 24/7 especially if they have other dangerous midliners. Then there are builds with 2 or 3 SH's, and indiscriminate holocaust nuking on koth and shrine caps. It just needs to be toned down a little.

There were a variety of hexways that worked fine before LC was buffed (PnH wiped them all out).

A flail nerf would work too.

At least PoD is an elite skill and can't be thrown into any build like rend can.

PnH monks don't need a power heal because they are always a 3rd monk in HA and like you mentioned, divine healing / heavens delight pump good party healing for 5e. Change it to heal for a little if you have to, just not 5e and 1/4s cast with the enchantment effect on top if that.

SoC - Not really a priority, just something to think about. There was tombs before NF.

Proposal for weapon removal skill - I agree that skills that specifically counter something else are pretty bad, but WoW has got to go...once rend (and maybe PoD) get a proper nerf what's the argument for keeping it? Maybe nerfing WoW to weapon of shadow recharge would do the trick too. I heard a rumor that a weapon removal skill is going to happen anyway next update (probably some cheese dick on pvx started it, no idea).

¿Evan¿ · Feb 15, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Skills

Savannah Heat / Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - 20% damage reduction across the board.
Smite Hex - 20% damage reduction and reduce AoE to nearby
Smite Condition - Reduce AoE to nearby
Lingering Curse - 10e, reduce -healing to 25% (possibly 20%...) and decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Suffering - Decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Rend Enchantments - Disabled for +10s for each monk enchantment removed
Palm Strike - Disables your non-attack skills 5s
Trampling Ox - 12s recharge, +10 damage @ 14 dagger (same as horns)
PnH - 10e, 3/4s cast - This is way too good for 5e compared to other hex removals. Only argument for keeping it is lingering gayness.
Atrophy - Change skill description to - Hex Spell. Removes a weapon spell. For (3...6...7 seconds.) target foe cannot be the target of weapon spells, 15s recharge.
Song of Concentration - No longer affects ghostly hero

Maps

Everyone has their opinion on what sucks...not a lot of love for forgotten shrines and antechamber in particular. I was thinking if antechamber is going to stay maybe add in two way teleporters like this to encourage faster splitting and better access to the outside gate pads.

HoH

Get rid of shrine caps and relic runs for 3 way...maybe keep shrine caps for 2 ways.

Heroes

Nerf interrupt ability.

---------------------

Most importantly with the skill updates though, see how the meta settles in and do another real update after a month or two to address the most pressing issues if things don't improve.

Flame away

I like most of your ideas but I'd like a couple things done differently. To start, I would like to see a longer recharge on smite hex and condi. (at least 15 seconds on both.)

Not sure if I like the song not effecting ghostly hero idea. I like it in the way that it lets teams bring another skill instead of wasting a slot on song. Only thing I don't like is the huge advantage it gives the holding team because of how easy it is to interrupt. (Also, everyone will run a 3rd monk with spellbreaker

)

On map changes, I would like to see either antechamber or forgotten shrines taken out. Only one cap point map is needed imo. Bring back sacred temples! This map is pretty much the only map that requires intensive strategy in heroes' ascent and needs to be brought back.

FoxBat · Feb 15, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Someone mentioned turning the chest area of HoH into another cap point on that style of play, would do wonders to alleviate the AoE cluster**** that usually happens, and actually make splitting viable or something.

Reverend Dr · Feb 15, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Should I make my own thread to start my own opinions about HA/PvP rather than using one of the many already existing threads?

LifesRestorer · Feb 15, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

too bad you just write giant walls of text

Shadow Slave · Feb 15, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

too bad you just write giant walls of text

Are we reading the same thread? - I dont even HA and yet I took the time to read this 'easy-to-read' thread. Troll less.

From what I know/have seen of HA, these changes look pretty solid ~ at the very least, a good starting point.

Any sort of weapon-spell removal gets me all warm and fuzzy inside

LifesRestorer · Feb 16, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

I was actually talking about reverend, obviously you haven't read other threads. Fail less.

Yeah I guess I should have commented on the actual thread... Changes look pretty solid, apart from Atrophy. I see what you were trying to do with it, as weapon spells (WoW in particular) are ridiculously overpowered, although as someone else said it would become a silver bullet skill.

Reverend Dr · Feb 16, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Do you really think that addressing complex problems can be done in a couple of sentences? Or are you offput that I actually set some groundwork for counterarguments rather than presenting an idea then spend the next five pages actually constructing the argument that should have been presented from the beginning?

Krill · Feb 16, 2009, 09:39 AM // 09:39

I would also like to see sacred temples back in instead of fetid / burial / forgotten / antechamber (they all have negatives)...but not broken tower unless it is reworked into something besides kill count. Maybe 3 way shrine cap with the central shrine giving the old alter buff and 3 open shrines around the perimeter. Dunno but the kill count was just awful.

BrotherKurupt · Mar 04, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Hmm, yes, bring back Sacred Temples! It's actually incredibly fun to watch people fail at the lever.

Master Ketsu · Mar 04, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

You have the right idea but some of those nerfs are too harsh, much like how izzy nerfs work. If there is anything we have learned about izzy nerfs, its that completely removing a skill from play only makes people find other degenerate shit to run instead of leaning towards better balance, and in the long run too many izzy nerfs lead to a meta were skills are screwed up out of whack which has resulted in the stale meta we have today.

So...
( my response in bold. )

Quote:

Savannah Heat / Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - 20% damage reduction across the board.
Savannah Heat is really the only one that needs a nerf. Good players don't ball.
Smite Hex - 20% damage reduction and reduce AoE to nearby
Fine, but I would also reduce cast time to 3/4 if you want to both nerf damage and range.
Smite Condition - Reduce AoE to nearby
Fine
Lingering Curse - 10e, reduce -healing to 25% (possibly 20%...) and decrease duration
to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Slight overnerf. I'd keep it at 5e. The other two changes are fine.
Suffering - Decrease duration to at least 20s @ 14 curses
Fine
Rend Enchantments - Disabled for +10s for each monk enchantment removed
I like the idea, but this is still a overnerf. Scaled 10...3 seconds for each monk enchant removed would be better, and creates problems for secondaries trying to run it.
Palm Strike - Disables your non-attack skills 5s
6 second recharge is really what it needs.
Trampling Ox - 12s recharge, +10 damage @ 14 dagger (same as horns)
Overnerf. TO is not OP, its synergy with PS is.
PnH - 10e, 3/4s cast - This is way too good for 5e compared to other hex removals.
Still 10e seems harsh. I'd rather see the cast time increased to possibly 1 second and the amount of hexes toned down.
Atrophy - Change skill description to - Hex Spell. Removes a weapon spell. For (3...6...7
seconds.) target foe cannot be the target of weapon spells, 15s recharge.
Nice
Song of Concentration - No longer affects ghostly hero
"Only effects humans" - unless the ghostly is considered human.

Krill · Mar 04, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

How does bumping the recharge on PS to 6s really do anything? It only cuts out the possibility of a double PS spike with Blades of Steel.

I really don't care about the other skills besides making PnH and LC more reasonable and kicking Gwen out of HA. It would be nice to see SH, smites, rend, hexes in general and weapon of gayness adjusted but that would be a stretch. I'm just hoping because of GvG, PnH and LC do get taken care of and maybe something about heroes if anyone from Anet has watched HA in the past 3 months...

Um Yeah · Mar 04, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ¿Evan¿

Not sure if I like the song not effecting ghostly hero idea. I like it in the way that it lets teams bring another skill instead of wasting a slot on song. Only thing I don't like is the huge advantage it gives the holding team because of how easy it is to interrupt. (Also, everyone will run a 3rd monk with spellbreaker

)

Diversion>PD, sb infooose!!

Kyp Jade · Mar 04, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Skill updates are fine

SoC, is fine for everyone but the ghostly hero. But we cant just remove it without lots of other changes, PD/Magebane for example. Id rather see something happen to SoC, so the net effect is

You cannot be interrupted
You cannot block
Knockdown effects cannot be prevented

OR

You cannot be interrupted
You cannot block
Skills take twice(or 4x) as long to use.

----------
Beyond that, two of the 4 underworld maps need to die
SACRED TEMPLES must return
Broken tower must return

However, even if HA were to recieve a massive (good) overhaul, a large portion of the pvp playerbase has quit, if anet wanted HA to be more populated again, the rewards need to be rethinked to attract the pve farmers and title hunters. Possibly some kind of book that fills up per completed map and can be turned in for 5-10k faction if fully completed or something.

I still wont play HA when every run is UW->HoH

Ariena Najea · Mar 04, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

The biggest problem that I have seen in HA is the dependence on specific skills, notably [[Song of Concentration] and [[Make Haste]. The proposed change earlier in this thread to SoC to make it only affect humans is the right approach, but a better solution would be to make it only affect the Party as opposed to Allies. As for Make Haste, the fact that it is a shout and can be maintained at low Command needs an appropriate nerf. I suggest changing the current mechanic of ending on attack, to rather end on using a skill. While still being a powerful and irremovable speed buff, it would no longer be as versatile.

As for the problems with [[Lingering Curse], [[Suffering], and other AoE hexes, the individual skills are not overpowered. The correct solution is not to nerf these skills, but rather provide better options for AoE hex removal. PnH works wonders on single targets, but [[Withdraw Hexes] or other skills need a buff to counter hexes across multiple characters. Make it an elite [[Extinguish] for hexes, and hexstack builds will have a check.

A lot of people have made suggestions that would make Weapon Spells removable. At this point in the game, balancing such a thing is not feasible. If removable, nearly all WSs would need to be reworked, which is not going to happen. Besides, the Necromancer line does not need to be any more versatile than it already is, and that goes double for Soul Reaping.

Krill · Mar 04, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Well if you really want to get rits back in as support (discussed in another thread) instead of 3 monk backlines with PnH or spell breaker, buff an elite pot that removes a hex in earshot as a drop effect...but make it expensive and with an appropriate recharge so it can't just be spammed like PnH and deny hexes can. This would address the issue of party wide tab hexing pressure, but still allow for single target hexing. Example:

Tranquil Was Tanasen: Elite Item Spell. Hold Tanasen's ashes for up to 5...17...20 seconds. While you hold his ashes, hexes on you expire 10...42...50% faster.. When you drop his ashes, all allies within earshot lose 1 hex. 15e, 1c 20s recharge.